China the Beautiful

[baruchim]

Dear gurus of the Forum!

Could we discuss the following questions that came across my mind long time ago:

1. In what aspects of the Chinese shi-poem does the poet's individual style express itself most vividly?

2. Is it possible for an experienced Chinese connoisseur without any direct content-driven hints to attribute a poem unknown to him as belonging to a Jin, Tang or Song poet?

3. What is the usual ratio between the general tradition and individual innovation in the shi poetry?

4. Is it possible (and how) to reproduce the individual style when translating a shi poem into a foreign language?

Boris

[Aolung]

Dear Baruchim,

although I don't feel in the least addressed by your term of "Guru" (not unlike you, I'm just dealing with Chinese poetry since quite a couple of years), and given that there are no other replys up to the moment, here's my poor two cents:

1)
Maybe in using (very rare, though) metaphors 'more' than others (cf. Li He), the special topic (e.g. Li Bai vs. Du Fu), special choice of words ... (?)
2)
Here, a special feature of Sung style is coming on my mind, which is called "tan/dan". But can "tastelessness" be a good and striking criterion?
²H dˆjn s.v. thin; light; tasteless; weak
3)
??? Less than 10%???
4)
Hardly!! Maybe in very rare and "lucky" cases

Aolung

[baruchim]

[sllee]

I will give it a try:

1. The most expressive way is whatever the poet chooses at that time when he composed the poem. YueFu seems to be the style with less restriction and thus more expressive. Li Bai is quite free in his own style not to be tied down by the format. Thus his poems are most expressive. I can say the worst is Lushi which is most restrictive and thus the least expressive.

2. Jin poems are more Buddhist Chan-like (Zen in Japanese). Tang poems are varied but a lot are descriptive of events and practical. Song poems are more on landscapes.

3. It is hard to tell on this one.

4. If the translation is closer to the derivative format, it is already a huge success (i.e. conforming to the poetry format in the translated language). To develop an individual style probably is more like a translator's style, not the style of the original poet.

[/quote]
_________________
SL Lee
http://www.asiawind.com

[David1960]

Dear Mr. Boris Meshcheryakov,
Greetings from Georgia. Excuse me for delaying the letter. I saw your web page and it is perfect. It seems that you have worked hard. If you are interested in my point of you on concrete facts I'd have great wish to tell you if you send me your e-mail address. My e-mail is given in my part.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
David Khomeriki
P.S. You can write me in Rusiian as well.

[Aolung]

Dear Davit,

[David1960]

Dear Mr. Alfred,
Thank you for your message. I'm very sorry that we had misunderstanding. I meant the fact that Boris could write to me in Russian and felt that it was unaccepatble to talk in Forum other lanaguage but English. Though Mr. Boris hasn't written anything yet.
Thank you once more for praising our book. I have sent you my e-mail address and please see it. As for the Georgian ranslation I think that it is translated on a good level and I will be happy if ther appears to be a certain person knowing Georgian and be able to read it.
Looking forward to receiving your reply.
With great respect
Davit Khomeriki

[Rob Roy]

A very interesting topic and I'd like to give some childish opinions of mine.

Traditional Chinese poetry has very strict rules and forms, including the cadence, the rhyme, the tempo, the tone pattern, the contraposition of words, even the limitative number of characters...

While it seemed that so much restrictive conditions had fortunately NOT come into a trivial formality to the expression BUT been turned into a very subtle, very unique and very sensitive way to convey the artistic enrichment of our ancient mentalities.

A typical example maybe that "jin3 se4" written by Li Shang-Yin ( a famous poet living in Mid-Tang and an expert in writing love poems )

锦瑟无端五十弦 一弦一柱思华年
庄生晓梦迷蝴蝶 望帝春心思杜鹃
沧海月明珠有泪 蓝田日暖玉生烟
此情可待成追忆 只是当时已惘然

...strictly conforming to the rules of Lu-Shi poem. But the ideas which the poet wanted to express almost can never be restricted to some fixed versions - everyone can explain its content in one's own way.

That is just the fascinating inbeing of ancient Chinese poems: to construct some uncertain atmosphere in very certain way...but, with very tactful artifices, very untraceable techniques, of course.

Modern Chinese poems can be written without any restriction, meanwhile lost the essential charm of poetry - a phenomenon worthy to be thought of.

Chinese language itself is an association of ideas: various hieroglyphic symbols...balanced rhythmic flows...harmonious inflection or modulation of the voice...to be more directly understandable - a mixture of painting, music, and, mathematics...together

Nevertheless, the restricted formats of traditional poetry appropriately bring those specialties of Chinese language into play and provide unlimited space for the imagination of our poets. A paradox?

As to the judgement of the eras of poetry without any direct content-driven hints, Oh, quite a difficult assignment! Four-syllable and five-syllable Gu-Shi were very popular in Jin, with some aloof dignity to the world; Seven-syllable and five-syllable Jue-Ju and Lu-Shi were developed in Tang and reached their high tide at that time, having great variety in contents and reflecting the vitality of people in those vintage years...While in Song Dynasty, our bel-esprits paid more and more attentions to Ci, a more musical format of poesy, and became moralistic in poem-writings. Mainly, the difference in the viewpoints of poets to observe the world and the difference in the measures to express the ideas are much more important than the difference in formats. All in all, poetry is not word game and the political,economical and culture traits of different times always had some reflection in the creation of poetry.

I ever read that Fu Lei, a great translator accomplished in French literature, spent almost ten years to cast off the Romain Rolland-style in writing after he had finished the translation of "Jean-Christophe". If we have read that book and then read those works of Balzac also translated by Fu lei, - so vivid features and so prominent style of French literature, but conveyed in Chinese and being fulled with the individual characteristic of Fu Lei himself.

So, to create an individual style when translating shi poems into a foreign language certainly can be expected and we Chinese shall be very glad to do something helpful in the process of working towards such a great objective.

[sllee]

Rob,

I agree with you on the loss of sophistication in modern poems. It is hard to find anyone to compose poems in the style of Tang and Jin any more. But that is a natural development.

One important point about the utility of ancient style poems is musicality. The reason for rhyming and ping/ce tones is to fit into a musical scheme.

When Tang poems are too restrictive, Song Ci became the liberated form. That is also the time when China acquired a lot of foreign musical instruments, especially 'hu qin' that greatly enriched the Chinese music.

There is a tendency for art to become more a popular entertaintment, especially in the American society. All structures and disciplines are broken to convey a raw emotion that any one can improvise. Rap is the modern form of very primitive poems. There is no ping/ce in the English language. Rhyming is not an absolute rule. So it is flooding the popular culture.

One can imagine similar developments happened when "Fu" transforms into "Shi", and "Shi" to "Ci", and "Ci" to modern poems. There is less and less structure, and more personal freedom.

The evolution of music from the Gregorian chant to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy followed a similar pathway.

In terms of calligraphy, the evolution of "Zhuan", "Li", "Kai" "Xing", "Cao" also follow the same pattern.

In visual art, we have the classical realism, impressionism, cubism, and abstractism.

It is not a time to lament the loss of structure and sophistication, but a time to enjoy the varieties and spectrum of richness. Eventually, some forms would die out, or different styles may be favored at different times. It is only natural. People still enjoy Gregorian chants, Zhuan Shu, and realism.

BTW, Romaine Rolland's Jean Christophe as translated by Fu Lei is a wonderful book that influenced me a lot during my high school years. After retiring from a science career, I finally found and bought an early edition of the English version. Have to find some time to read it. To all wh are interested in art, especially music, this is a book that you should not miss. I think Fu Lei also was absorbed by this book in his own personality. That shows in his letters to his family members. That is another book that one should read.
_________________
SL Lee
http://www.asiawind.com

[Rob Roy]

Dear Mr Lee,